In this special episode, Carlton is joined by his good friend and fellow photographer, Luke Cleland. Together they discuss how to get in the habit of taking photos and videos, how to improve your image quality, and where you can find inspiration. If you’ve ever wanted to up your photography game, this episode is for you.
Highlights from the conversation:
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Transcription generated by Otter.ai
Luke Cleland 0:06
Gary Vee was in Toronto and he tweeted a photo of a restaurant downtown and was like, “I’ll be hanging out and answering some questions.” So I hopped in my car and flew over there. And everyone was trying to take selfies with him. And I was just like, “Oh, you know what’s kind of cool? And I’m sure what Gary would like to see is like him in the street of Toronto.” And I had my camera with me and I saw I took a shot of him on this street. Anyways, I put it on Twitter. And sure enough, he like retweeted it. We were chatting, he like followed me on Twitter. When I thought about this afterward, I was realizing wow, like, that’s what Gary wants, he wants a photo of himself, talking to people giving other people value. It was really important to him. I thought, what would be valuable to Gary in this moment? And it’s not a selfie like he doesn’t care about that’s not helpful to him at that moment. And so I thought this is actually gonna go really well for both of us. If you really think about your customer and what they’re wanting, your stuff will stand out way above everybody else.
Put that content down. Content. The close is over. What’s your name? Content. That’s my name. You know why, mister? Because you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight. I drove an $80,000 BMW. That’s my name. Content Is for Closers.
Carlton Riffel 2:05
Welcome back to Content Is for Closers. We have a special episode today. I know some of you listening to my voice are a little shocked that you don’t hear Adam giving the intro. But today, he is not here because I fired him. And he’s no longer with the company. Just kidding. He is actually on vacation. And he challenged me. He said, Carlton, I want you to take the mic. Whenever you feel like you. It’s up to you. So knowing that I thought, how can I provide the most value to our audience? My background is in photographery. As a designer, I think there are a lot of great opportunities for business owners for people making content to up their game a little bit. So I thought if I’m gonna have a guest, I need to bring in somebody who knows a lot about photography, who knows a lot about design. And the first person I thought of was my good friend, Luke Cleland. So welcome to the show, Luke.
Luke Cleland 2:58
Thanks for having me, Carlton. I’m excited about it.
Carlton Riffel 3:00
Yeah, so Luke, we go back quite a ways to art school. He actually photographed our wedding. We were friends at the time, I think you were just starting out. But I photographed weddings for about six years, six to seven years, kind of on the side while I was a teacher, I thought we would jump on the show and really just kind of give some practical tips by understanding a little bit more about taking quality photos and videos without breaking the budget. Luke, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and kind of how you got started in photography and in videography, and how that journey has gone.
Luke Cleland 3:34
Yeah, it’s funny you say your wedding because I took a lot of photos. And my friends knew about that. And they were like, Hey, you should take our wedding photos. And at first I was so shocked because I had never known someone that was a photographer, which was one of the reasons why I was doing graphic design. Because I was like that’s the closest thing you can be to being an artist and actual make a living that your mom would be so concerned about. InDesign, I love design and I thought of myself very much as an artist. And the more that I did photography as a hobby, the more people saw the value in my skill in one way because I took a lot of photos I was really good really on a digital photography and how I was able to tell a story and I vividly remember, Carlton, I don’t think we’ve ever talked about that. I still remember us sitting in the room and you’re like, I really want you to shoot our wedding because I feel like you have like an artistic eye. Like I like what you see. That was a cool moment because it was like okay, here I’ve like cultivated how to see things and how to tell a good story and, and I felt like you were someone that believed in me early on to be like, Hey, you should do this for my own wedding. So anyway, so yeah, I’ve been a wedding photographer ever since I got married in between and my wife has been an incredible addition. She’s added so much to our business that in the last few years has really changed it has really we’ve really amped up our business. It’s in a lot of ways, which makes me excited to talk and be on a podcast like this. Because I’m really passionate and really excited about business and how to even create better content for myself, which is crazy to think as a photographer, it must be easy for us. It’s not easy. And we can always learn and get good tips from other people. So I think I think this will be helpful for everybody involved.
Carlton Riffel 5:22
Just to kind of side note, as well, Luke has a YouTube channel as well as Instagram, not just the content that you take for other people. But then what you’re publishing for yourself. I think what’s hard about this is we’re on a podcast, right? So some people may be like, “You’re going to talk about photos and videos, and you’re doing it through audio form?” Yeah, we’re going to just describe everything in articulate detail so you get a great mental picture.
A lot of the battle that people have, and we’ve talked about this in the last few episodes, is a lot of it’s mental. A lot of it’s getting in our own way. And thinking no one really wants to see what I what I’m looking at, or what I see. So much of what we have to learn first is really learning the habit of capturing things, whether it’s photo or video, really getting into the habit to where you’re always looking at different things that come up. I know, for me, one of the things that I’m always looking at is light. Like, it’s probably back to my photography days, but that’s really what’s at the core of so much of what allows us to capture photos. But beyond that, there are several different ways that you can approach taking photos and taking videos, and even just capturing content in general. So what we’re gonna do is we’re going to talk a little bit about, like, what it looks like to have that habit of capturing things day to day. And then we’re gonna give some practical tips on how to improve the quality without hiring a pro, like Luke here. And, yeah, you’re actually gonna realize how hard it is, and then you’re gonna go hire him. And then we’re going to talk finally about how to get creative with it. And some tips for being creative with photos and with videos and with capturing content. I think we got to help the audience, think about where to start, I’m going to tell you right now, you do not need to start by going out and buying the most expensive camera are the most expensive video camera, we have some pretty amazing technology in our pockets.
Luke Cleland 7:12
It’s unfair. It’s honestly unfair how good phone cameras are. It’s amazing what you can do. You mentioned my YouTube channel. I actually do a lot of that. I have an iPhone 12 and I do a lot of the video with my iPhone. The quality is amazing. As long as you know some of the things about lighting, maybe a few basic tips about lighting, you can make incredible things with your phone. You don’t need a crazy $5,000 camera to do that.
Carlton Riffel 7:40
You’d be surprised at the quality that you can get when you take some of those lighting tips we’re going to talk about later in mind. And really, you just have to start with what you have. So many people I think get caught up in the technology or in the software, or even the right channels like I’ve got to create this account, or I’ve got to grow to enough subscribers before I start publishing. I know we’ve said on this podcast before but just start creating. And you’ll be surprised with what you can come up with because a lot of it is that habit that as you capture. And as you create things, you’re going to start learning things and you’re going to start adding to your knowledge set or your experiences around capturing content.
Luke Cleland 8:18
I would add to that too, whether it’s even on a wedding day, or whether it’s like a, like an idea for a video content that I had for my YouTube channel or something like that so many times, it was a big mental challenge of like, Oh, should I do it? Or it’s just like a stupid idea. No one cares about this like, and then it’s like, I’m just going to try the idea. I’m just going to take the photo, I’m going to shoot the video, see what happens. And okay, sometimes it’s bad. But a lot of the time, that actually was pretty good. I think a lot of times you’d surprise yourself if you just got out there and tried something and didn’t let your inner critic take over all you’re doing things. Anytime I’ve taught done like one on one coaching with photography, teaching people how to use their fancy cameras, whether it’s fancy cameras or your iPhone, the first thing that I always think about and I always talk to someone about is the fact that you don’t really even start seeing things in photography until you start taking the photos and not just take them in, like fire them and then never look at them again. Like take the photos, and then look at what you’ve done and really inspect it. And it’s only then when you start realizing like oh, maybe this photo does look yellow, or maybe it does look blurry or like maybe if I brighten the background a little bit. This photo wouldn’t look so dizzy and it wouldn’t look so sad. Like there are so many times where I give someone one tip like a really simple tip for photography is be aware of what light sources are going on when you’re taking the photo. So go by a window and use natural light and I think that’s really helpful. But I think the one part that a lot of people leave out of that tip is the Step Two of that the advanced version of that is that you don’t want to mix light colors. So for example, right now I’m using like all-natural light, if I was to turn on my lights and my studio here that are in the ceiling above, it will look yellow. And that’s because your camera can’t deal with two different colors of lights at one time, and it starts looking muddy and gross. Like, what do you take a photo with your family at night? Like you’re in the family room, you’re like, What is going on? Why does everything look so weird, is because there are probably different colors of light mixing in there. And it just like makes everything a mess. And so that’s why that tip is helpful go by window, because there’s only one color of light coming in at one time. And that’s why those photos like look so clean and clear. And so I think when you when you start taking photos with like a tip like that in mind, then you start looking for yellow photos, and you’re like, oh, okay, it’s yellow when I do this, or it’s like, it looks blue when I do this. So if you take a tip like that, and then actually implement it, that’s when you really start to learn.
Carlton Riffel 11:02
Yeah, absolutely. And so so much of it comes down to observing what’s around you. And then I think also start asking yourself questions from your customers perspective. So like, what is it that my customers want to see? What is it that they’re interested in, and there may be some obvious things sitting right in front of you, maybe it’s the way that you start your process, maybe you’re a chemical company. And when this giant shipment of chemicals comes in, and to you, it’s just another boring day of delivery. But to somebody else to a customer that might be really interesting. Every single photo has something in it. So start to ask yourself, like what people, what places what things like, like nouns, which of those would be interesting to my customers? What would they like to see? And then what do you like to see? What are the things that you find interesting day to day about your own job? Start with asking yourself those questions, what’s around me? And how can I observe the things that are taking place right in front of me to tell that story and start to capture content from that perspective.
Luke Cleland 12:08
And something to think about, especially if you’ve been in business for a long time, and you do the same thing over and over again, I think I’m aware of this, especially when I got married, and my wife kind of came into my process and saw things that I did. And she would be like, Oh, wow, you just like can like you do those things that are very simple. And everyday basic to me can be quite interesting to other people. And so if you’re just like, oh, this is just like my normal job, you’d actually be surprised at how fascinated people can be on the outside. They could be boring to you, but interesting to someone else.
Carlton Riffel 12:39
Think about the mundane and then also think about the end result, what’s the end result that your customer wants from you. And make sure you show that as well, I think that’s probably the most natural place people go when they think about capturing content for their business. Just a quick example, there was a rental company that I I rented a skid steer from I was trying to basically renovated my front yard, I took a picture at the end of the day, I just snapped it. And I posted it with my review. And I think to this day, it’s been viewed over 10,000 times. It’s just kind of crazy. People love to see results, they love to see that end result that they’re the customer is going for. And if you can show that through a good quality photo, then that will go a long ways.
Luke Cleland 13:23
I have a funny story in terms of thinking of what the like, quote unquote customer wants. This was, oh man, maybe five, six years ago. Gary Vee was in Toronto and he tweeted a photo of a restaurant downtown and was like, “I’ll be hanging out and answering some questions.” So I hopped in my car and flew over there. And there is probably like 20, 30 people outside the restaurant, he comes out. He’s chatting, taking photos, signing books, I had my book with me. And everyone was trying to take selfies with him. There was like a big crowd around him chatting. And I was just like, “Oh, you know what’s kind of cool? And I’m sure what Gary would like to see is like him in the street of Toronto.” It was late at night with this, like red light of the restaurant coming down. And I had my camera with me and I saw I took a shot of him on this street. It was kind of very moody, very cool with all these people and chatting with the people. Anyways, I put it on Twitter. And sure enough, he like retweeted it. We were chatting, he like followed me on Twitter. When I thought about this afterward, I was realizing wow, like, that’s what Gary wants, he wants a photo of himself, talking to people giving other people value. It was really important to him. We were like messaging on Twitter and I was asking him about a project, all this. It escalated so quickly only because just for one second, I thought, what would be valuable to Gary in this moment? And it’s not a selfie like he doesn’t care about that’s not helpful to him at that moment. And so I thought this is actually gonna go really well for both of us. Anyways, that just popped into my mind in terms of like, if you really think about your customer and what they’re wanting, your stuff will stand out way above everybody else because it actually will hit a chord with them.
Carlton Riffel 15:07
Yeah, that’s awesome story. I love that really this start, I think Luke and I agree is really the foundation you have to be capturing, you have to be getting content. And I know everyone listening to this is like, yeah, we’ve heard that 100 times from this podcast, but I think some things that maybe you haven’t heard are just some quick practical tips, Luke already let one about lighting. But really, I think the idea would be once you get that habit established, now let’s try to work on the quality of those photos, the quality of those videos, so that you can go to the next level when it comes to making your content stand out because there are a ton of people right now that are putting in the work to capture their content. So now let’s take it to the next step above that and just some practical tips that help take your photography up a notch.
The best way to start with that, for me, is thinking about what people don’t want. When you go on Instagram, or you’re on any sort of social media platform. And you see videos and photos that are just super blurry, or super shaky. There are several things that just make the video annoying to watch or make the photo another that just looks like all the rest. So look at the opposite. What are some of the ways to achieve those? So just a couple to run through some tips, how do you get your photo to be not blurry. So much of what photography and videography is is light coming through the lens of that camera and being captured on the sensor, we could get into a whole bunch of technical details. But the more light that you have, the faster that that camera can capture the image. And the faster can capture it will keep it from becoming blurry. So really, it’s just the two basic sides to that is holding still, that’s pretty obvious. And then having good light. So Luke, do you have any other tips for lighting?
Luke Cleland 16:54
One more thing about light is like cameras on your phone are incredible. But the Achilles heel to them is the size of the sensor and without being too gate geeky with it. They don’t do well in low light, right? So do you take a photo at night with your friends, and it’s like super grainy, it’s because the sensor is so tiny on it that it just doesn’t do well. And that’s why they’re trying software improvements on the image noise reduction, things like that. But if you give yourself a lot of light, there are a lot of times where you can’t necessarily tell what’s been taken on a professional-level camera or your iPhone. If you’re outside, there’s tons of light around and you take a photo, it’s gonna be very sharp and clear. And so yeah, just amping up that light. One thing, just from a stylistic point of view, I think some people think a lot of light, so I’m gonna get lights, and like point them at my subject for the most part, that doesn’t work very well, because it makes it really harsh light, lots of like crazy shadows, if you’re thinking about someone’s face, I can be putting a lot of shadows on their face that aren’t very flattering. So think about adding indirect light, like if you have a light like I have in my studio, maybe bounce it off the wall, and it just like brings up the light in the whole room. So yeah, you don’t necessarily have to like point light at the thing you’re taking photos of, but try to increase the light in the whole space that you’re taking photos.
Carlton Riffel 18:14
Yeah, I’ve tried to think a lot about the best way to say this point or try to communicate this to people I’ve talked to about photography, but it’s not really the brightness of the light. And it’s more of the quality of the light. And usually people just like look at me confused when I say that light has quality. So to try to make a little more simple, the size of your light source has to be larger than the subject if you’re trying to get a soft light. Right now, I’m sitting in front of a large eight-foot window. So if I went to the other side of the room, comparatively, that eight-foot window would be a lot smaller, but because I’m close to it, it’s like wrapping around me and light is coming from all the different angles towards my face so you get softer shadows. People talk about photography being better on a cloudy day. That’s because the light is raining down from everywhere in the sky instead of one singular point. That being said, sometimes you want harsh light, sometimes you want the contrast of a super bright light. So look for ways to achieve different lighting setups. If you’re trying to make someone not look as wrinkly and show all their blemishes, then having soft light is better. Whereas if you’re maybe you’re trying to make a more dramatic photo, like you were talking at night with Gary Vee, having that light source that was a little bit more pointed and more direct was better. Another quick iPhone tip for those of you I think Android has a similar feature is you can actually hold the focus button and drag down or up to adjust your exposure. So if things look a little too bright, you can click on the bright part and it should adjust to that part. But if it’s still not what you want, you can actually move it down by holding and dragging down or up to make things brighter or darker.
Luke Cleland 19:59
Two things that came to mind. One, I don’t know if this is really simple, but I actually never did this for a long time. and that was just cleaning the lens on my iPhone. I know that it’s really simple, but actually it can make a big difference. I never realized that actually gets stuff on it.
Carlton Riffel 20:14
If it looks like you’re in a sauna, then something’s wrong. You need to— It shouldn’t be all foggy.
Luke Cleland 20:20
You don’t live in a rainforest, yeah.
Carlton Riffel 20:22
I think to thinking about what can you do to rearrange what’s around you to put something different in the photo, putting things against like Stark backgrounds are finding interesting ways to create depth, the best zoom lenses your feet, you can always get closer to things you can always go further back. So try not to think unnecessarily about what’s the obvious thing or the easiest setup to get, instead think, what would make this a little bit more interesting by maybe changing one or two elements? Maybe that’s the point of view that you’re at, I think we’re going to talk about this a little bit with getting creative. But some of the problems that people have with not being interested in the videos come down to these simple, easy-to-fix tips that if you just take a second and look at your setup, you can usually fix so as far as videos go, I think some things that people don’t want to watch is videos of bad sound. In video, it’s only as good as your audio. So hopefully, you don’t have to do a pro mic setup. But sometimes if you’re recording a video, instead of using the on camera mic, pop in a pair of air pods, or get one of those little lapel mics that plugs into your phone, get that audio to be close to your mouth so that it’s not getting all the other background noises in another one for video is just thinking about how you cut it, making sure it’s not too long or too rambling.
Luke Cleland 21:42
And cutting is everything. Something that I tell myself all the time, specifically when I’m making YouTube videos. And the difficulty is you want long YouTube videos because you want that long watch time you want people to stay on YouTube to stay on your channel. But unless you are just completely riveting at all times longer videos aren’t necessarily better. And something that I tell myself as I’m editing is like, how much can I take out of this and still get the point across? Do they care? Do I need to tell them like I just had something for lunch this morning. And it’s I know that sounds silly. But when you’re making the videos, in the moment, it feels important or it feels like they might be interested. But when you’re editing, that’s where a lot of the magic can come into and telling yourself can I take this out and still get the message across. And you just keep paring down, keep paring down. And it’s actually amazing what your video can turn into when you get rid of a lot of the things that don’t need to be there.
Carlton Riffel 22:39
Yeah, we’re going to come to watch this video, and Jim’s gonna have just cut out 98% of our conversation. It’s two minutes long, if this gets the point across just fine. So I think that’s good for some of those tips. I know with video, there’s a whole other side of that we can jump into. So I think the main things to think about are where your subject is placed, what’s happening in the frame, is there movement that you can show, because that’s one of the advantages of video, and then sometimes being okay to just set your camera down and let the movement happen in the frame instead of the movement happened with your camera. And then there are other times where you want to pick up the camera and you want to be moving it around in a way that makes sense. You don’t want to be making people sick, but moving it around in a way that helps grab attention.
So some of these things that we’re starting to talk about are getting a little bit more into the creative side. So just to kind of review, we talked a little bit about that developing that habit of capturing and habit of creating. And then the second thing would be trying to improve the quality. And then the third thing would be starting to look at ways that you can get more creative with the content that you’re capturing.
If you think about snapshots, or videos like memories, people tend to forget memories. But when you’re able to capture something on film or on video, and you can bring that alive in an interesting way people will a lot of times remember the photograph more than they’ll actually remember the memory captured in a way that is creative and maintains their interest. Because a lot of times that is the way that they’re going to see your business that is the personality, that’s the context. And the lens that will apply to who you are as a person is that last thing that they’ve watched the view or the way that they’ve interacted with your content. So just to transition into this creative part, a lot of people get overwhelmed. When they’re thinking about creativity, they start thinking about like doing things in a really weird way. Like we talked about earlier. It takes stepping back for a second and looking at how do I do this a little bit different than the way it’s always done. So for me, I like to think about point of view. Most people walk up to something and they just pull up their phone and they stick it right there. If you get down on your knees or if you go up a couple of steps you’re already on a different plane than 90% of the people that are taking that photo or a video. Do you have any tips? around how to get more creative with our photos and videos.
Luke Cleland 25:03
Yeah, we’re in a very creative business. I don’t necessarily see creativity as this or that you have to you pray to the gods that you find the creative spark, I’ve always seen my own creativity. It’s just curiosity. So even when I’m doing a portrait session, there’s a lot of intimidation when someone’s sitting in our studio, and it’s just me and them. And I just have to take good photos of them. Like there’s a lot of pressure there. How do I make a good photo? And if someone just standing or sitting somewhere, and how I think about it is I get curious, a very practical way of being curious is taking photos, all sides of someone of asking them to turn the whole way around, even though it feels silly. I actually did a lot of commercial photography and product photography for several years. And something that I got in the habit of doing when I was doing products, and I actually take that into taking photos of people now is move it in as many directions as you can think of and when you’re curious that way, when you’re curious, like, I wonder, that’s a great way to start. I wonder what would happen if I took it from all four angles? If I did upside down? Just try to be curious, think of as many different ways of how you can approach something because I think so many people just take one photo and say like, Okay, that was great. And then they move on. But I think what will really get your customers is that if you take the time to look at all four corners of it, like look at every angle, like going back to the Gary Vee story that I said earlier, like everyone was so focused in the close-up group, I took 20 steps back and said, Well, it’s a pretty cool view from back here and took the photo. And that was the difference. So yeah, just taking some time and looking at different angles can be really helpful.
Carlton Riffel 26:48
Yeah, point of view is huge. It’s taking what things we’re all familiar with, like time, how can we change time, speeding something up completely or slowing it down? That’s a really great way of showing a little bit different perspective than what everyone sees. Maybe you’re a manufacturing company, and you have a process that’s happening super fast. What would it look like to record that in slow motion?
Luke Cleland 27:12
Things on TikTok or Instagram where they slow down this manufacturing process. I saw what how cookie molds were made. I just saw that the other day, that is a niche business there. And they just had a slow-mo video of these metal pieces getting slammed into a mold. I watched it twice.
Carlton Riffel 27:31
Now all you see is mold making.
Luke Cleland 27:33
Carlton Riffel 27:37
Another thing that I always think about is how do I contrast things. And this can happen on two different levels. It can happen on the actual level of what’s in the photo or what’s in the video. So contrasting your subject matter what’s in the foreground with what’s in the background, but then also contrasting the shots that you put together. So if I’m putting together several pieces to be in my video, I’m going to think about how do I contrast the shot that I just showed, maybe it’s a wide-angle view of something and the next shot zooming in or going really close to something that’s really up close, that kind of helps our brain stay interested, when we see something that’s different. This could come with interviews, too, if you have an interview, maybe there’s one shot that’s wide, but then you bring it in closer for the next shot that allows us to have a transition and not be distracted by it. But instead like oh, this is something completely different and now I’m interested in.
Luke Cleland 28:31
That’s a great tip. That’s something I use all the time myself is I literally whisper to myself over and over again like wide, medium tight, wide, medium tight. And even as I’m shooting a wedding I’m thinking Oh, have I shot this full room by itself because it’s easy to go in close to what’s happening. It’s it’s easy to go into like what’s moving but if you think Yeah, I thought that was that’s really great advice that you were saying is starting why like get the whole scene in and then do something that’s medium that’s still getting the action and maybe a little closer and then get something that’s detailed a way to think about detail photos is think about like you’re taking photos or video like it’s a puzzle and you’re going to put those puzzle pieces together later but capture close up sections that are interesting and think about it like those are going to be put together as a whole later but the magic is is if you take three photos of the same thing from the same distance and you put those beside each other and maybe there’s a different action and each one it is very boring feeling but if you do the wide and then a medium and a tight it all of a sudden feels riveting because it really draws your brain into be interested at what you’re trying to show.
Carlton Riffel 29:49
Absolutely. I think that’s all I’ve got Luke we could probably keep jamming all day on this but I think we’re running out of time. Hopefully we did not bore you. Adam is going to be watching the subscriber count on this episode of very closely.
Luke Cleland 30:03
They talked about photography on a podcast.
Carlton Riffel 30:05
Just to kind of wrap up Luke, do you see any trends or any interesting things happening in the content space that you find interesting, or things that you’re kind of curious about?
Luke Cleland 30:14
We’ve been really interested in and the push on video for content, I think Instagram is a very real platform and something that we’re really interested in, and the move toward so much short content video is, for better or for worse, like not like, loved by still photographers like ourselves, right? We’re like, no, Instagram needs to go back. But the reality is, we have to learn. The market changes. Instagram, social media platforms change. And I think something that I had been thinking about is just always constantly being open to learning and learning something that I’m not comfortable with. And I think, like you said, at the very beginning, all of these things are very learnable to go from maybe if you’re not taking photos for your business at all to like, you want to like create lots of content. All of those skills are very, very learnable, even though it feels overwhelming. And I would say the biggest thing is just like your mindset and whether you’re willing to like take the time, and even though it feels painful and you don’t like feels like you’re stumbling along if you take the time just to learn shooting some video, taking photos and making it a better quality, more interesting. How can I make a 10 Second Reel on Instagram interesting, even though that’s not my wheelhouse, and I’m sure that’s like a lot of what it’s on. It’s right there. Like I just want to sell the widget. I don’t want to have to make videos as well. We’re seeing that now with even just putting some more effort into things that are outside our wheelhouse, like short-form videos, it does make a big difference, even though it’s like I don’t know, I have resistance to that. I want to stay in my wheelhouse take still photos. But if I learned to branch out and learn other things, I can actually I could do more still photos because my dad’s a little girlfriend. So that’s kind of the first that something that came to mind.
Carlton Riffel 31:58
Well, thank you all for tuning in and listening and watching or wherever you’re doing this. And thank you, Luke, for coming on and being our guest.
Luke Cleland 32:06
Yeah. Thanks for having me.