Keeping It Fresh With Podcasting

Adam Vazquez 0:06
On this episode we have our first return guest: Landon Campbel! Landon is the Founder and Host of the In Their 20’s podcast in addition to working as an executive for Inside.com.

Last time we talked to Landon about his show inTheir20’s, and all of the momentum that he was manufacturing in his career as a result. Since then, he’s leveraged the show to get a full-time job and is now leading one of the most dynamic content organizations in the world.

During our conversation, we got an update on what Landon’s been up to, how his creation process is adapting with his new responsibilities, and what has him most excited about content right now.

I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and hope you will, too. Let’s dive into this episode with Landon Campbell from Inside.com.

Intro 1:00
Put that content down. Content. The close is over. What’s your name? Content. That’s my name. You know why, mister? Because you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight. I drove an $80,000 BMW. That’s my name. Content Is for Closers.

Adam Vazquez 1:18
Alright, we’re back. We’re back with another episode, back with our first recurring guest, Landon Campbell. Excited to get into that, but before we get into that, if you’re not watching the YouTube video, Carlton has kind of a devious smile and told me he has something to say so, once again, I’m excited.

Carlton Riffel 1:44
Landon was saying that you have the best intros so I was going to compliment you because you always do have good intros. But hopefully this is not our last podcast, but it might be because I woke up this morning—people are gonna think I’m a gross human, but I promise I take the most cautionary steps when I work outside—I woke up this morning and I felt a pain in my stomach. And I looked down and there was a tick fully embedded. I took a shower last night after I did yard work so I don’t know why I didn’t notice it last night. It was this morning I noticed it. So I had to do a little removal and hopefully I don’t have Lyme disease.

Adam Vazquez 2:25
Listen, if this is the last one, first of all, we will do a very nice commemorative thing for you here on the show. And I mean, what a way to go out. Just a fully embedded tick.

Carlton Riffel 2:37
I’m probably over-dramatizing it.

Adam Vazquez 2:43
That is not what I was expecting you to say, bringing this idea.

Carlton Riffel 2:54
How are you doing?

Adam Vazquez 2:55
Yeah, we can only go up from there. I’m doing well. Speaking of unexpected things that have happened to us, Carlton, do you know we are now at 72 five-star ratings on our way to 100? Slower than we need to be and if you’re listening to this, if you hear the sound of my voice and you have not given us a five-star review, this is your chance. The Reckoning day is coming. This is one of you another reminder to you to give a five-star review right now pause the show go give us one.

Carlton Riffel 3:28
They’re going to give us a five-star review for my tick stories.

Adam Vazquez 3:31
Yeah, yeah. Let us know what you think about embedded tics. Are you for them, against them, etc. In the meantime, let me read you one of our recent reviews. It comes from Ethan. His review says, “Super tactical five stars. This show is great. I work at a large newsletter company and find the show to be very tactical. Great for people who are actually building content products every day rather than just thinking about it.” Love to hear that. “The guest selection is unique, too. Rather than just focusing on founders, they mix in seasoned operators who are down in the trenches, which just adds to how actionable the advice and insights are.” Five stars. Super nice review.

Carlton Riffel 4:11
That’s incredibly nice. I’m gonna frame that and put it on my wall.

Adam Vazquez 4:15
If this was a tweet, it would be quote tweeted and say, “Did Content Is for Closers write that because that’s basically what we’d want to hear.” So thank you, Ethan, for that very nice review.

Like I said, we are at 72 on our way to 100. We need to make some headway here. We’re slowing down. We had a good push there after we announced it a couple of weeks ago, but continue. Listen, put an ad in there for your company. I’m saying it so straight up. Just do it.

Carlton Riffel 4:45
I thought we were gonna have to create rules or something around it, but no.

Adam Vazquez 4:53
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, speaking of the Wild West, you heard from our guy, Landon Campbell. A lot happened between the last time he came on and this episode. Anything stick out to you in particular?

Carlton Riffel 5:05
Yeah, another great episode, you can tell he’s hitting on all cylinders he went from it was probably our show that did it really, I think went from being on our show to then working for Jason Calacanis and inside.com, which is a really interesting organization of itself when you look at content and how to use content to grow business, but I think really, there are a few big takeaways, and I don’t want to steal his thunder, or steal his thunder or spoil it’s even worse. Yeah. Would you be way worse? Make sure I got that right this time. But I think he was talking a lot about new technologies. And we mentioned this I think two podcasts ago, how can podcasting, how can some of these methods of content creation get more social, or what can happen around interaction and engagement. And there are several platforms out there, he mentioned a couple of them, specifically calling firesides. And other one, you got the bigger players like clubhouse and Twitter spaces. But using that to leverage a new audience, there’s this in the technology world, you’ve got a lot of walled gardens. And sometimes that can be a limiting factor. But sometimes it also really helps you get discoverability. And so that that walled garden approach can be a little frustrating at times, but you can use it to your advantage by being an early mover.

Adam Vazquez 6:33
So you just mean because when you’re in the walled garden, if you become somebody, you’re a big fish in a smaller pond, essentially. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s harder for new entrants to come in and siphon off that audience or distract your audience. Yeah, that’s a great point.

Carlton Riffel 6:47
Especially with a medium like podcasting that’s so sticky, and then you throw in engagement or a specific app that has to be utilized on and that becomes even more sticky.

Adam Vazquez 7:00
Yeah, yeah. You touched on it for a second there. I thought, obviously, Landon’s an incredible worker, incredible content creator. And everything he’s done, continues to prove that I’m excited for him. He’s actually already we’re scheduling his third appearance, because you mentioned he’s working for inside.com. They’re launching and announcing some really big stuff coming out soon, that we couldn’t get into On this episode, but we will shortly. So I’m excited for that. And then I just think he’s one of those people that is, one of our customers Arlan Hamilton, who leads backstage. It just announced yesterday, this really cool idea. She’s producing a soap opera. She loves soap operas, right? She’s producing a podcast soap opera. It’s built on the premise of being in Silicon Valley so it has this huge connection.

Carlton Riffel
Is it called All My Startups? Or what does it call it?

Adam Vazquez
I can’t remember what it’s called. I’ll have Tristen link it in the notes. It’s something new, fresh, an entirely new idea. It’s exactly what Landon is talking about in this episode and what we talked to Steph Smith about just a few weeks ago, which is continuing to find new and fresh ways to use the medium. He’s a perfect example of that. We’re just scratching the surface. We’re going to continue to see him do more and more. And I’m excited to watch that journey. So let’s get into it with Landon Campbell.

He is back. We’re back on the show with Landon Campbell. If you missed the first time we had Landon on episode seven, Landon, you came on and talked about all about inTheir20s what you were doing at the time, I think you had either just accepted a job at inside or you were about to but you’ve been there for a little while. And so it was just time to have you back and get a quick update on all things landed. How’s it been going?

Landon Campbell 9:00
It’s going good man. Excited to be back. Adam, you have the best intros in the podcast game so I appreciate that.

Adam Vazquez 9:07
Glad you like them. Since we talked to you, you started— Are you Inside.com or This Week in Startups? Is it all the same thing? I always get it confused.

Landon Campbell 9:16
Yeah, so it’s all separate, but we’re under the Jason Calacanis umbrella. But yeah, just to kind of like give people a reminder of the last episode, I interviewed Jason Calacanis on my podcast last year, I was able to leverage that and turn it into an opportunity to work from him. And now I’m an executive at his company inside.com, which is a media company and we create best content for business leaders, entrepreneurs and founders, covering many different verticals crypto, tech, VC, eCommerce, so it’s been a lot of fun.

Adam Vazquez 9:44
Yeah. And you’ve been all over the place. I see you hosting panels and discussions on crypto and all these different things. I guess there’s, I’m just curious, how’s that been? I don’t know that you were necessarily a crypto expert going into it. How’s it been just catching up, feeling the learning curve, and all that so you can host those types of discussions?

Landon Campbell 10:04
Of course the fun thing about crypto, metaverse, web3, whatever it is, it’s still so early sure, like we have just not even scratched the surface of what the industry will look like, in the next year or two years. I mean, if you were to tell Brian Armstrong, the CEO of Coinbase, five years ago that you’d be having an ad during the Superbowl. You’d be like, what and that look at all these crypto ads that we saw during the big game on Sunday. So I think that it doesn’t, you don’t have to, like be an expert in it. Because we’re all kind of looking and figuring it out. At the same time. As we go on where I like to spend a lot of my time when I tell all my friends who are interested in learning about crypto, they’re looking for the best resources, get on Twitter. Curating a good Twitter feed can literally be your secret weapon to understanding what’s going on in the space because the smartest people are on Twitter. And where do they share kind of their first thoughts where they know that the thoughts they get in the shower like when they’re going on walks like Twitter, Twitter is going to be like the resource place for that. So I found a really good just group of people. And I kind of get to read their first thoughts before they go on CNBC. Before they write long newsletters or articles. They’re kind of tweeting out ideas. So yeah, it’s a great resource.

Adam Vazquez 11:15
Awesome. Yeah, you’ve been doing a great job. I’ve hung out in a few of those spaces and things like that and really enjoyed it. The other thing we have to address people have been asking, there’s a direct correlation between when you joined Jason Calacanis’ media empire, and all of his shows, I think two of them going into like top 10 of all podcasts, what are you doing specifically that’s driving this? I know you’re behind it.

Landon Campbell 11:38
I’m fortunate to be surrounded by amazing people, people who have really given me responsibility. I mean, I’ve had a lot of jobs in the past where, and I know, nothing kind of happens overnight. But I mean, it, it helps when you have someone like a mentor, someone that you look up to, like give you responsibility, like really see something in you. And I spent time in a lot of other jobs in the past where I’d worked my butt off, but just wasn’t given that one shot. I think that a lot of times, like, all you need is that one shot. So I’ve been fortunate to just work for someone that I really respect so much. And I’ve learned so much from In addition, he’s allowed me to lead within our team and inside, so it’s something that I will always be fortunate to have given an opportunity to, but also like, I don’t want to screw it up. So the stakes are high, but I’m having fun doing it.

I’ve seen you’ve been doing a lot of stuff in Twitter spaces. I think this both for Inside and inTheir20s. You really liked Clubhouse, right? Or maybe still do?

Yeah, it was big. I was a big clubhouse user, I think I also got a lot of respect for a call and David Sachs is he’s incubating a company to do that. Yeah. So we spoke about how I view distribution last time, but I’ll kind of just break it down shortly if you’re gonna get involved in like any industry, any interest, any market mind being podcasting, you kind of got to see like the full-funnel, you want to understand everything. So I’ve been interacting with a lot of live podcasting apps, a lot of social audio companies. And there’s a differentiation. Also, between social audio and live podcasts. We can talk about that a little bit too. But in order to understand podcasting, to the best of my ability, like I’ve really wanted to see it all. So you could just kind of stick with the platforms that work for you, that’s fine. But I recommend like, if you’re going into something and you don’t know anything about it, because I wasn’t a podcast listener before starting my show, I didn’t have a podcast obviously, before starting my show didn’t know anything about the space. So I really made it a mission to just like, know about every new company on the podcasting market. This person’s doing this, this person doing that because it’s been a great way for me to distribute my content through these other platforms. I mean, being on Colin early, it was like how I got David Sacks on my show. So I think that you got to be scrappy, no matter what it is, doesn’t have to be for podcasting can be if I want to be the next big singer, like I’m gonna be experimenting with so many different platforms learning, video creator, sky’s the limit. Yeah, you just want to diversify for sure.

It’d be fun to do a space with you and Ruben and a few of the other people who have been around the podcast game a little bit and maybe just talk about some stuff. I feel like there’s a renewed we had like the minting of the creative economy, what, like 18 months ago, probably or maybe during COVID. And, yes, it’s almost like people are now rediscovering or discovering it for the first time that you can build a content platform, a media brand that turns into a business all on its own. So I think that’d be an interesting thing to talk about.

Adam Vazquez 14:48
The thing about podcast ads is that they normally suck, right? I mean, you’re listening to a conversation, you’re actually enjoying, and then you hear the host come on in a completely different pitch and tell you why you should buy some meal prep service or listen to another pod instead of this one, but you wanted to listen to this one. That’s why you’re on this episode. That’s why you’re here in the first place. Well, this ad is no different, so just bear with me because I need to remind you that today’s show is brought to you by HEARD Media. HEARD is a podcast and YouTube production agency serving B2B service-based companies. That’s who we work with. That’s who we serve. If you’re a B2B company, listen to this, we can help you. We create, produce, and distribute content to help you find customers so you can focus on what you’re great at. If you want to learn more, once the show resumes in like 15 seconds, open your browser on your phone and visit www.trustheard.com to find out how your company can start a show that drives revenue. Ugh, it’s finally over Let’s get back to the show.

You still do inTheir20s. Can you give us an update on that? What’s been going on? What’s got you excited over there?

Landon Campbell 15:53
Yeah, so I still have inTheir20s crewneck on right now and it still feels good to be working on that bringing in some great guests, and continue to do that for my show. It’s when I look at inTheir20s It’s just all about baby steps. We never wanted to bring on sponsors too early, never wanted to— Like, we created an internship, but we didn’t want to start that too early. It’s all about just focusing on this thing, okay, we accomplish that that’s checked off of our list, we can then move to this one, then move to this one, that was something that I started with my co-founder who passed away we were very, like, one of our main principles was take it day by day, we’ll have these big goals and big objectives, but you got to do it day by day. Even since his passing, I’ve continued that. So we have some exciting things in the works for sure. But just still taking it day by day, and I know we’re gonna be talking about my theory on podcast market fit. Yeah, I think that if you want to show that like last and has a lasting impact show that’s able to build a strong audience show that you want others to take seriously, you got to find this thing I call podcast market fit. It’s the same with any founder of a startup, they’re looking for that thing called product-market fit. So they’re building the product, but they’re trying to find it a way for it to fit, within a given market within a given ecosystem, a customer base, etc. The reason why so many podcasts quit, we spoke about the numbers last time 90% of podcasters quit after episode three, is because they’re trying too much too early, it’s very difficult to find guests, they kind of give up the listenership isn’t what they want it to be. And that’s not something that’s going to happen overnight, you got to really put in the time. Listenership didn’t get to what I want my show to be, I mean, wanted it to be until like our 50th episode, that’s when people I feel like kind of started to understand the theme of the show. And even recently, we’ve kind of just started to find the ideal audience member that we’d want to go after. So you gotta if you want to build a large show that, as you mentioned, can pivot into something larger in the media ecosystem, you got to take your time to find that podcast market fit, create a lot of content, sure, you want to create episodes that you would listen to, but also, you got to think about the listener, and you got to really have a theme that makes sense your brain on the right guests that makes sense for the show, even the length of your episode. I mean, those are all things that you have to take into account, and really just like, get people focused on them. And that’s how over time you build that market fit within a podcast.

Adam Vazquez 18:27
When I saw you tweet about it, it was so perfect because, first of all, it’s just a great little moniker, like the product is replaced with pop-art so it’s very clear as to what you’re saying. And then it made so much sense because of who you are. And the fact like, when I saw it, I was like, Oh, well, he had, like, he is the perfect example of that, because of just the way that you’ve developed your show around, and I’m talking to inTheir20s. Now you’re, of course, just around your interests, your curiosity, the stage of life that you were in, and what I think will be a creative challenge for you, over time is, as you mature and grow out of— and you’re still young, and but I’m just saying, as you get more experience, I bet it will be difficult in some way to connect with the people who are where you were. Do you know what I mean?

Landon Campbell 19:18
I agree 100%. Yeah, yeah. And that’s something I also have to keep in mind. If it’s gonna be me bringing on other co-hosts that are younger, they go to that audience or other types of content that we’re able to build. I mean, we’re kind of as I have a little team that I worked with inTheir20s on and now we’re starting to invest our time, a little more into TikTok. I mean, those are all things we do keep in mind. Yes. If we want to have a lasting impact, and we’re able to hit the whole market of 20-somethings, we got to be continuing to innovate constantly not getting too comfortable and just patience.

Adam Vazquez 19:52
Yeah, but anyway, you personify that so well, and one question I had is you gave a lot of context on the things to look for, but I think a lot of people that I talk to anyway that are in podcasting have this trouble of figuring out the best way to actually engage or to communicate with two-sided with their audience. So bringing back to what we talked about earlier with some of either the social listening to social podcasting, have you found anything specifically that’s helped you have that two-way connection as opposed to just the one side of the show?

Landon Campbell 20:27
Yes, great question because I’m very bullish on live podcasting. So I have inTheir20s, that’s my first show. I just recently created another show called Venturing VC with Inside.com. I’ve had that for about, we launched it actually, like the first week of January. We’re going to be recording our sixth episode live after this, actually. I’m very bullish on why podcasting, there are a lot of platforms to do that like on calling restream. If you think of like Jason’s show twist. I mean, that’s a live show, he allows people to kind of tune in as it’s being recorded, and then it gets distributed on platforms. A day after two days after with Venturing VC, we record every Tuesday at noon and it goes live Thursday mornings, but this is nice. I mean, just gives an opportunity to build community, allow your audience to join in ask questions. It can be a little scary, too, because if there are any mistakes, I mean, it’s live, it’s a show, but I think that that’s just a big part of podcasting I’m very excited about. Imagine if Joe Rogan’s show was live. I think that engagement that he already has with his audience, that relationship would be 10x. If I’m allowed to watch and tap in, ask questions, react to it in real-time.

There are a lot of shows that are trying this live podcasting model. Pat McAfee’s podcast, you’re able to tune in live, and then it goes, it gets published at a later date. I think that should be something that a lot of podcasters consider. But if you don’t want to just like get started right away with streaming to the masses, you can start on a platform like Call-In, you can start on a lot of these other live podcasting platforms, where you’re able to let your audience become a part of the show, and that’s the difference to me of social audio and live podcasting. I think social audio was made to be a feature. Social audio, those are like the Twitter spaces. Those are like the clubhouses. I don’t know if you guys remember Spotify greenroom. Spotify had a little social audio. Facebook was building a social audio. Discord has a social audio. Social audio is a great feature. Similar to an Instagram story, a Twitter space, they already have the existing audience, this is just another area for their users to communicate and hang out. It can be off the cuff, it could just be, “we’re starting a room, we’re gonna have a conversation.” I think social audio is a great feature.

Call-In and even fireside there are a few other platforms. I like to think of it as live podcasting, or these are individuals hosts who want to build high-quality shows, so they care about how their audio sounds, and restream. For example, I don’t know if Riverside has a live allowing people to— Yeah, so that’s like a live podcast aspect. And I feel like live podcasting still has some room to grow. Because if we want the masses of podcasters and content creators to be making shows strictly on these live platforms, I just think the audio quality has to continue to improve, but I think we can get there. Think about how there are so many music video directors and famous photographers that are able to use their iPhone because the hardware has evolved over time. If audio on phone is able to improve greatly over the next 10 years, which I think it will. 100%. Moore’s Law, technology advancing every two years, it compounds. I think that we’ll have more people creating like actual high-quality shows just from their phone, lowering the barrier of entry to creating a show. Yeah, anybody can create a podcast, but you do need a lot of equipment and you need a lot of support. If I can use an app like Call-In—which is what they want to do—if I can use an app like Call-In and there’s high-quality audio, I can create it from my phone and I don’t need equipment, we’ll see so many more Joe Rogan’s eventually. So many more big, big podcasters.

Adam Vazquez 24:17
Totally agree. And I agree too with your, I mean, if you just look, I’m using the camera right now from the latest iPhone and that thing can shoot movies essentially, just the visual, but you’re right. The audio just hasn’t for some reason kept up and it hasn’t needed to but now that audio is becoming even more and more of a thing. I think it’ll continue to go that way. Last question and then we know you got a bunch of other stuff to do and I really appreciate you jumping back on with of course with that. There’s I’ve we’ve interacted this on about this on Twitter a bunch of different times, but there’s this rising murmur of like, Oh, look at this another whatever guy with a podcast asked her another business with a podcast or Baba. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. I know the thesis overall that you agree with me, but what do you think about the people who are like, “Podcasting is white noise. We’ve already hit saturation,” et cetera. What’s your take on that?

Landon Campbell 25:18
There are only like 2.7 million podcast shows out there. If you think about how many songs there are, if you think about how many YouTube pages there are, it’s such a small market. So literally, if you’re able to get at least, like, I forgot what the specific number is, but like 1,000 downloads, which isn’t anything for a musical artists, it isn’t anything for really doesn’t matter on YouTube, but like as a podcaster, just 1,000 listens and you’re kind of close to the 1%. I might have the numbers wrong a little bit, but yeah, very close to that. So what I mean is like the window of opportunity is there. So I think that we’re still so early, yes, podcasting has been around since early 2000s. And for a long time, it hadn’t changed a lot. But now we have things like social audio, live podcasting, a lot of companies like Riverside coming along, that are helping to innovate the space a lot. So I think it’s a very exciting time to get into it. Another reason why I’m so bullish on the medium is if you want to just create a podcast just to talk with your friends, have fun, that’s fine. People can do that. But I think there are so many opportunities to turn your podcast into so many different things, pivot into getting a new job opportunity, pivot into becoming a media agency that helps other people create podcasts. I’ve been able to sit down with some amazing people whom I would have never had access to without my show. So I think that it doesn’t just have to be this one-sided thing. All the podcast memes are funny, yes. Like, we don’t need another podcast, bro, but there are a lot of people that are actually taking this seriously. They have goals, objectives of building something on top of their podcast and they realize that the podcast is just a vehicle to help them get there.

So there’s that and the last thing I’ll say is, there are no mediums like podcasting. You have 30 minutes to an hour plus of someone’s undivided attention. I can’t watch a YouTube video when I’m driving or at the gym because it’s too hard to focus on that. People are able to tap in, they’re able to listen, to hear what’s going on in someone’s mind. People really respect the medium. If you need proof, look at the numbers of Joe Rogan’s show compared to a lot of these legacy media companies. It’s outpacing. There are just so many great shows out there, different opinions, different perspectives. If you don’t like one, you can tap into another one. I think people are just overwhelmed and tired with these large legacy media companies where they have an agenda, they have stakeholders with podcasting, it’s early, there are a lot of shows still, 2.7 mil, but it’s still early.

Adam Vazquez 28:09
Yeah, a couple just follow up on that. So I think first of all, every show has an agenda, obviously, like, that’s one thing. Well, the podcasting. Yeah, of course, they have an agenda. They wouldn’t be spending their time, but you know what the agenda is. It’s transparent. You know that they have an agenda. I think that’s an important caveat. Yes. And difference. The second day I was gonna say is, to your point about using it as a relational tool, which I think is by far to me, still one of the just under-the-radar things people just don’t seem to grasp. I’m talking to you, you and I didn’t know each other until we had our first conversation after this call with you. I have Henry Bellcaster on and Dylan Jordan. He’s in Chicago and they’ve built their entire business on the back of now. They were just doing what we talked about it like they were just two friends is making. But they’ve built an entire business on the back of that we just had Justin Gordon on who, as well, last week, he’s awesome. And he talks about this idea of a serendipity engine, and how you’re able to create these, these connection points. And this collision of ideas through spending the time doing the blocking Tiger podcast. So anyway, our audience already knows how I feel about it. I just felt like I had to also say that in addition to this.

Landon Campbell 29:22
You should say it every single episode. I mean, until people really understand it, because I mean, what you’re saying is truth. Like it’s such a strong relational tool. If you already have a large company, you can use podcasting as a way to further build your community, really get on that one-on-one level with your audience. And also, if you’re starting from nothing, starting from scratch, use podcasting to get into those doors. Because you never know you might be working for Jason Calacanis one day unexpectedly just from starting a podcast so my point is you never know where can take you. All you just got to do is it get started and try?

Adam Vazquez 29:53
Yeah, man. We appreciate you coming on. I know you’re super busy and I appreciate you fitting us in. We’re gonna have to keep tabs on what you’re doing and maybe in another six months, we can have you come back on and give us another update.

Landon Campbell 30:03
Of course, yeah. We didn’t get a chance to talk about it, so we’ll save it for the next six months, but we’re launching a competitor to LinkedIn at Inside.

Adam Vazquez 30:11
Oh, I did not know that.

Landon Campbell 30:12
Yeah, we’ll save it for the next one because our beta is launching at the end of this month so it’ll be nice to kind of see the first six months and then we can talk about it.

Adam Vazquez 30:21
Cool. Appreciate you and we’ll talk to you soon.

Landon Campbell 30:23
Awesome, Adam. Thank you.

Carlton Riffel 30:25
And that’s a wrap. Thank you for listening to this episode of Content Is for Closers. We hope you find this show really helpful as you grow your business with content. Maybe you know of other people who would find this show helpful as well. How about you send them our way? If you didn’t like this show and you want to tell us that, then you can head over to contentisforclosers.com where you can send us a message, give us some feedback, ask questions, or find detailed notes for every episode. Until next time, keep creating and keep closing.