In this episode, Adam and Carlton are joined by Eric Brown, the Co-founder & Chief Visionary Officer of Whiteboard. Eric talks about applying personal values to create digital experiences, casting a vision that lasts past ourselves, and what it practically looks like to market through content.
Highlights from the conversation:
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Transcription generated by Otter.ai
Automated transcription – may contain errors
Adam Vazquez 00:06
Today’s guest is Eric Brown, the co-founder and Chief Visionary Officer of the award-winning creative agency Whiteboard. Eric and his co-founder Taylor Jones have taken the company from designing websites at their kitchen table to winning awards for design and development while serving clients like Chick-fil-A, Google, MailChimp, and others. Eric joined the show to talk about how applying personal values has helped almost 300 brands create digital experiences. He delved into why it’s so important to cast a vision that lasts past ourselves as well as what it looks like practically for companies as they create and market themselves through content. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode with Eric and I’ve really enjoyed getting to know him as a person. Let’s dive in with Eric Brown from Whiteboard.
Adam Vazquez 01:16
Welcome back into Content Is for Closers. Glad to be with you today. We’ve got a great episode interview scheduled with Eric Brown upcoming in just a moment, but Carlton, how are we doing this week?
Carlton Riffel 01:26
We’re awesome, man. Listening to this episode, I just feel even more creative than I have in at least a couple of weeks. One of the things that I took away from it is Eric is not a CEO, he’s a CVO (Chief Vision Officer) and he really does bring the vision. They’re talking to their clients about what it’s like to look at a 30 year roadmap or what they are going to be in 30 years. He really brings that intentionality to their entire company. They’ve produced a ton of content just around their values and what is most important to them. For the last couple years, I’ve always respected how well they’ve written and published content around their culture and what they see is most important. Just looking from a design perspective, they’re just a shining example in the Chattanooga area of a company who does quality design.
Adam Vazquez 02:14
I liked, to the point that you just made, how he brings some of those macro thoughts—whether it be the philosophy behind their work, the vision, all these things that could be 30 or 10 years out, or things that are that important that they would last that long—and then brings that to fruition on this micro daily scale in terms of how they publish content for themselves and then how they execute for their clients. He talked a little bit about that process and how the big important fundamental things impact and facilitate the way that they bring work to bear, so I thought it was a really good episode. Let’s get into this with Eric Brown, Chief Visionary Officer at Whiteboard. All right, we’ve got Eric Brown, Co-founder and CVO of Whiteboard with us. Eric, thanks for joining the show.
Eric Brown 03:08
Happy to be here, and thank you for the invitation.
Adam Vazquez 03:11
You have one of the unique titles, I would say. Like, CVO isn’t one that you see all around. We were just kind of talking offline about how you and your co-founder Taylor have taken different roles over the years through the business. Before we get into all that we’re gonna talk about with experiences and having balanced brands and things like that, what does that mean? What does a CVO do?
Eric Brown 03:33
Yep, absolutely. Well, first and foremost, I think I’ve got to give credit to the person who we learned that from, which was Simon Sinek in his book The Infinite Game. He actually has probably 1/3 of a chapter dedicated to the necessity that every single company should have a CVO. One of the reasons that he articulated in the book was the most important thing for any company, no matter what size, is what the vision looks like. How do we step back? How are we looking at our five year impact? Are we looking at our 10 year impact? What’s the next 30 years look like? For me and our team and the relationship that I have with my co-founder Taylor, we were doing an exercise around our roles. Taylor is very much the operations side, the brain of the business, and I’ve always gravitated toward the heartbeat and the vision and the ideas of the organizations that we get to come alongside. We actually read that book together and at the end, talking through the notes, I think he was the one who actually was like, “Eric, I think we got your title wrong. I think we should totally lean into this CVO idea,” and that’s how it happened.
Adam Vazquez 04:56
Nice. Yeah, I love that. We just wrapped up, and on the show we wrapped up a planning series at the end of last year essentially following the elements of the book Traction. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that.
Eric Brown 04:56
Adam Vazquez 04:57
Yeah, so even that was stretching for me personally, the 10 year part of it, and I think it was really, really good to go into and think about. I can’t even imagine the 30 year version of that, but I love that you guys are— I think one thing that comes across to anyone who’s familiar with Whiteboard or interacted with Whiteboard is the intentionality with which you all do business and have built your company. I think a lot of that is demonstrated by the way that you currently go to market with the different offerings that you have, one of them being around experience. If anyone goes to your website, there’s a ton of language, a ton of verbiage around this idea of building great experiences. Maybe you could just talk a little bit about how you— so for full disclosure, Eric and I were talking offline before and he started going into this and I was like, “Woah, woah, wait! I gotta press record.” It’s so good, but yeah, maybe just give us how you view the importance of experience and how it relates to what you all do for brands.
Eric Brown 06:09
Absolutely. I’ll start with the dictionary definition because I think that’s just a great place to start because I think there’s a 1,000 definitions for what the experience economy is. The thing that we’ve always leaned into is goods that are sold by emphasizing the effect they can have on a person’s life. I think for us, again, coming back into that Chief Vision Role, the goal of vision is to begin with the end. What happens when the mission is fulfilled? What happens when the vision is complete? Which is actually a scary place for a lot of the organizations we work with because when the vision is complete, the organization doesn’t need to exist anymore or the product doesn’t exist anymore, most of the time. One of the exercises that we love to do is start with the end in mind and talk about the end. Typically that starts with a 30 year exercise of “tell us what the next 30 years looks like.” The retrospection that happens within that conversation gives, first and foremost, it’s our hack to really understand what the values of a founder and or leader that we’re working with, like what those values are, and then how does that pull back into the product and/or service that they’re creating for the world? When we think about effects, we are all affected by the products and things that we’re marketed to on a daily basis. In fact, I think a lot of us—for me not only as an entrepreneur but as a dad and as a husband—is we’re overwhelmed with options on a daily basis of things we can buy, things we should look at. “Oh, this content just clicked baited its way into my life and now I have worry and anxiety.” There’s so many things happening on a day-to-day basis in all of our lives. When we get to work with a founder and/or leader around what they’re trying to do in the world, they’ve got to have a strong effect and if that effect hasn’t been fully fleshed out, that’s really where the superpowers of Whiteboard come in.
Adam Vazquez 08:31
Very cool. So you’re giving them the strength to break through all the overwhelm and all the rest of it. I have to ask you, back on the 30 year thing, are executive teams ready when you ask that question or are they like, “What are you talking about 30 years?” Especially non-owners. I could see that being an interesting question.
Eric Brown 08:59
It’s interesting: we started the business when I was 24. Now I’m 35 and thinking about the next 30 years, I’ll be 65 and there’s a good chance that both of my kids will be married and there’s the potential that I could have grandkids in the next 30 years. I think it’s more so just the realization that time is an incredible resource that we have, but it’s limited. To exercise “what can we accomplish over the next 30 years” is really the question that we’re trying to have with every single one of the clients we serve. For our team to reconcile that, they’ve challenged us of like, “Okay, well what does this look like for an agency that we could potentially work for for the next 30 years? What kind of environment could that look like? What would be inspiring about that environment?” I think for us, we have a very open posture towards all the ideas and things of how to create a culture that thrives here. They’re not necessarily intimidated. I think everybody’s certainly challenged by it.
Adam Vazquez 10:10
Sure. Oh, yeah.
Eric Brown 10:12
Adam Vazquez 10:13
In a good way. So you go through this process, you’re talking about the 30 year vision, what does the end look like? You’re then moving into the effects of the product or the message that you’re going to send out. How can brands think practically about building? Whether it be digital or non-digital, but I think for the purpose of this conversation, experiences that can serve their whatever it is: customer, prospect, employee base, etc?
Eric Brown 10:39
Absolutely. The most important design principle at Whiteboard was really spurred by a quote from Maya Angelou, which is, “I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” For Whiteboard, a lot of the experiences and the things that we’re creating at a high level, I really see as invitations to buy into a product vision, invitations to buy into some kind of social good, an invitation to be a part of somebody’s life so we put a lot of energy and intentionality behind designing these really beautiful, invitational experiences, or at least that’s the goal for everything we create as a team. One of the unique things that we’ve learned over the past 12 years is the digital space is ever-changing and it’s ever-learning, as we all know. I would say almost every single one of our clients, from the Fortune 500s that we serve all the way to the startups that we serve to the nonprofits that we serve, all feel some anxiety and are overwhelmed with the amount of things they feel like they’re not doing well. For Whiteboard, we’ve done our best to integrate a team. We have three teams internally: we have a product team, we have a brand team, and we have an activation team that are really trying to work in tandem because a lot of organizations are either (1) doing brand really well and not doing their products or platforms well and not doing marketing well, or (2) they’re doing marketing really well but don’t have strong brand positioning. What we’re trying to do is really build a holistic approach to how we build digital-first brands.
Adam Vazquez 12:33
I love that. Talk about a little bit, like when you go into a company, and I’m really thinking now for the entrepreneur who’s listening, who’s trying to figure out like, “Okay, well, I have a really strong brand potentially, but I don’t even use product, and what does activation mean?” So activation, you’re talking about marketing there. What about on the product side of things? I feel like that’s a huge emphasis to what you all have built.
Eric Brown 13:01
Yeah, no, absolutely. We have a digital product team that’s really creating platforms and/or digital products from the ground up or what we call “platforms internally,” which is really the website experiences. The metaphor that I always use for websites and the digital experiences we use is “It’s the front door to your house. Your house is made up of different rooms, all the rooms have different paint on the walls.” When you think about all the elements and facets of a company, a great metaphor has always been the things that we experience in a house: You’re always going to go into the front door. You’re always going to get a first impression of what that house is made of when you first walk in, and so websites are still the front door to an organization. It’s your front door to recruiting, it’s your front door to your vision. It’s the front door to where I think this relationship could go, and it’s also a place that—if you don’t make it feel like home and/or inviting—I don’t think I’m ever going to come visit again. I think we all face those opportunities on a day-to-day basis based on the different websites we visit every day.
Adam Vazquez 14:22
That’s something I really appreciate about you all. We, Derek and I, also started as website builders and there’s this impetus to push that down and, not belittle it, but it’s like, “Yeah, we started with web sites, but now we’re doing all this cool stuff. We do all these other things on top of it.” What you all have done so effectively is, first of all, not forget where you started, what your strength is, and you’ve elevated those things to have even more impact than just, “Yeah, we build websites.” The way you think about it, the way you talk about it, the way you are able to execute on it for customers. I remember just as an aside, the first time I talked to someone at Whiteboard. I think I was interviewing at Vayner, I was in the area for something, and you guys had the small office that you shared with Southtree and I was like, “Oh, those are both cool,” and now both of you have kind of exploded, so it’s cool to see how that evolved over time.
Eric Brown 15:25
Absolutely. Yeah, I think most people know Southtree by Legacybox.
Adam Vazquez 15:32
Yeah, Legacybox. That’s right.
Eric Brown 15:33
Yep. The camaraderie that we formed at the beginning of both companies, we were figuring things out. Facebook wasn’t a public company in those early days, and how much has changed. There was such a thing as organic traffic. There’s no such thing as that anymore, and so, man. Yeah, there were lots of lessons we learned in those days.
Adam Vazquez 15:56
Yeah, sure. I want to get to a little bit of a content brainstorm that we can do together, but before we do, just thinking of that evolution that you all have enjoyed and grown through, if you had to look back over the last 12 years, what are some of the main things you attribute that growth from building websites on your kitchen table to talking to Fortune 500s about their brand experience today? That’s quite a jump up. Talking about time earlier, 12 years really isn’t that much time for that quick of an escalation, so what are some of those things that you attribute that to?
Eric Brown 16:35
One of the things we spent a lot of time on, we had a mentor probably four or five years ago. We were talking about our culture at Whiteboard and the things that we were aspiring to create and wanted to be. I’ll never forget the day he looked at us, and he was like, “Guys, y’all talk a lot about what y’all want this place to be. Have you written it down?” Taylor and I just looked at each other and were like, “Well, no.” He said, “If you haven’t written it down, it doesn’t exist for anyone.” I promise you, Adam, the thing that we probably do more of than anything else is write about the culture we aspire to have and to write the things that we aim to accomplish on behalf of our clients. That exercise, and keeping that as a part of our rhythm as a team, has always generated the most rewarding conversations and lunch conversations with our colleagues and also our clients. One of the exercises we really leaned into, this was a handful years ago, it’s actually creating what we call “our digital stewardship manifesto,” which is really built off five pillars: (1) good is the enemy of great, (2) groundbreaking creativity requires exploration, (3) healthy people and healthy minds produce the greatest results, (4) the quality and creative value of any project will be directly proportional to the resources you invest in it, (5) and in a digital world, digital assets are a long term investment, not a short term hedge. I would say the bullet points in the manifesto (which you can download on our site, there’s definitely some more that we anchor to those five pieces) have all been lessons. One of the things is there’s a difference between a good website and a great website. Everybody knows what that means, but everyone might not be able to articulate it. Groundbreaking creativity requires exploration, it means we’re going to throw out bad ideas, but it doesn’t mean that we’re not going to actually take time to explore the ideas that we’re not going to pursue. Healthy people and healthy minds produce the greatest results. In the agency space, the agency industry is known for immense exploitation, immense politics, immense burnout and anxiety. We realized early on Whiteboard is never going to thrive if we’re burning out our people and our people don’t feel like they’re rested enough to contribute their best work, so at a heartbeat level we’ve tried to extinguish all of that that comes within our industry.
Adam Vazquez 19:34
Yeah, that’s great. I think there’s obviously— First of all, thanks for sharing that. The manifesto is available on the web, and I would encourage you, if you’re listening and you’re trying to think through how you can build your brand leads, it’s just a perfect example of the output that this type of thinking and this type of intentionality that we’re talking about delivers. So obviously, that is a public facing piece that helps you all congeal your thoughts internally, I’m sure helped in the new biz process. Are there any systems or cadences that you all use to share those ideas prior to that? Because you said that you spend a lot of time writing these things. Is that like a… Yeah, I don’t know, some way that you are able to do that on a regular basis and share those ideas with the team?
Eric Brown 20:19
No, absolutely. One of our rhythms, one of our rituals as a team is we do a Wednesday huddle, for example, and our Wednesday, huddles are really built around, first and foremost, at the onset of the global pandemic that we’re still in, is how are we creating rhythms of connection and allowing our team to express where they’re at? One of my favorite exercises that we do as a team is actually, we call it “1 to 10,” which is, “On a scale of one to 10, how are you?” And you don’t have to explain your number unless you want to, there’s no pressure there. What’s really unique about that exercise is, if I’m really great and I’m a 10, we celebrate that, but if a person is like, “You know what, I’m a three this week because this personal thing happened in my life that I don’t want to go into details about,” you could insert 1,000 different examples there, but it’s a way that our team has really been able to come around other people when they’re not bringing their best work that week or they’re just feeling a funk. We do a “1 to 10” exercise, we actually are transparent with our whole team about the finances of Whiteboard, so everybody knows how healthy we’re at, where we hit our goals, where we missed our goals, what do we need to critique? We have a boom award. “Boom” is the word we use for big accomplishments around here, so somebody passes that to a fellow team member every week.
Adam Vazquez 21:54
You even said that when we started recording. You were like, “Boom!” So I knew that it’s in the window.
Eric Brown 21:59
Absolutely. The last thing is really a time for me and/or Taylor to express heartbeat and vision. I would say a lot of the ideas and things that we’re testing or thinking about more often than times are really tested and expressed in that Wednesday huddle, so the ideas that have come from some of the conversations that have happened during our Wednesday huddles have just been, first and foremost, incredibly rewarding, but also incredibly challenging. Practically, one of the things that surfaced was this idea called “grayscale,” which is another digital publication we started launching last year. We’ve got a pretty aggressive schedule to actually release 24 issues this year related to the gray areas around the internet. The purpose of the internet, the purpose of technology is to scale human effort, but what happens when that scale is detrimental? The internet and all of its gray areas obviously gives us immense power with a click of a button, but that’s also a responsibility that I think brands have to carry and steward incredibly well, especially in moments that just feel so over political or in moments where everyone’s feeling anxiety. How are brands not being exploitative within these moments of extreme polarization? So that’s another one. Grayscale is something that we’re excited about.
Adam Vazquez 23:35
Nice. I must have— Is that live currently?
Eric Brown 23:38
It is at grayscale.whiteboard.is.
Adam Vazquez 23:42
Okay. Cool, I’ll have to check that out for sure. I love that you guys are publishing that. Okay, so obviously you spent a lot of time thinking about content, what intentional content looks like, how to do it effectively. Outside of what you all are creating internally (this is going into a little bit of a brainstorm session here, or kind of what’s important to you at the moment), what if anything externally is having an impact on you as a consumer, as a reader, whatever? Anything that you particularly want to share?
Eric Brown 24:13
Absolutely. I think first and foremost, my team laughs, they call me the “website wiki.” They think I look at websites more than anyone else, which could be true. We talk a lot about what it means to be a creative agent at Whiteboard. There are four principles we’ve created over the years: (1) How are we exercising imagination? (2) How are we empowering belief? (3) How are we discerning action? (4) How are we employing beauty? Those four things are what I’m kind of always secretly looking for in the products and the content that I love and, so as a consumer, the content that I’m gravitating towards today is really content that is making me ask hard questions about our space. This past year, I’ve been taking a hiatus off of social media at a personal level to reconcile why is this an important part of my life? Is it making me a better dad? Is it making me a better husband? Is it making me a better leader? Oftentimes, I can’t answer that question. I think so many friends and peers of ours are like, “Social media is just making me anxious 80% of the time.” Why do I keep spoon feeding myself immense anxiety and immense noise? Any content that is challenging those notions are things that I’m gravitating towards. So obviously, the Center for Humane Technology is one that is producing content that’s really challenging. A lot of how I think about social media, and ultimately challenging me in the way that— I believe social media is a tool, and advertising as a tool, and the internet is a tool, but it’s certainly not an identity. I think so much of our identities can be wrapped up in what we project on a screen, juxtaposed to what’s real, and the Center for Humane Technology is challenging me. I’ve been super into, there’s been a ton of obviously talk and discovery around Facebook this year, so Wall Street Journal’s Facebook Files, which is just a podcast that asks a lot of hard questions about the algorithms and about some of the practices that Facebook’s utilized over the past decade that for me have been incredibly hard to reconcile with. I remember when my friend, my former college roommate was like, “Hey, you need to get on this Facebook thing—” which back was in 2009, “…because you have a .edu email address. You can get on it.” Again, there’s so much power in the internet that we have to move beyond tactics and trends and really reconcile why it’s important, how we’re utilizing it because the truth is— My greatest fear and my greatest challenge is how am I going to empower my kids to think about these tools that will empower their lives, too?
Adam Vazquez 27:47
Going back to the Center for Humane Technology, I think those are the folks— or they had some connection to the documentary The Social Dilemma, I think, right?
Eric Brown 27:55
Yeah. They created it.
Adam Vazquez 27:58
Oh, they created it, okay, so you may have seen that, or if you haven’t seen it, it’s on Netflix, really interesting. Then they also (I’m just pulling up their site here) have a youth toolkit, which I think is really interesting and probably worth exploring. I’m with you, and it’s a weird tension because we do this for a living. Last year, I deleted everything besides Twitter, which is probably the worst of the group anyways, but there’s almost like a compulsion. In order to continue in my career, in order to continue building this business, we have to be publishing, right? We as individuals have a footprint on there. Even just deleting Facebook and Instagram and all that, you get questions from customers, from folks who are like, “Wait, you’re not on there? So how do you know what’s going on?” How do you resolve that tension personally? Knowing that you need the break and knowing that it’s probably something healthy for you as a human while at the same time building a company that is working in that space?
Eric Brown 29:04
I’ve embraced the posture that the tension is good. If the tension wasn’t ever present, that would be a problem, like I would be on one side. Either I would be completely apathetic, or it would just be about tactics that are driven by capitalism. One of the organizations we’ve worked with for the past several years, and probably one of the organizations that has influenced me most, is this group called Praxis Labs. They’re based in New York, they’re really architects. They architected this framework for what they call redemptive entrepreneurship. One of the things that we’ve brought into Whiteboard in terms of how we’re thinking is, how are we designing experiences with a redemptive edge? Now that’s client side. On the personal side, I think this is totally applicable for me as a dad and a husband. How am I not being exploitative? Which is “take all you can get,” “I win, you lose,” there’s winning and controlling as the sole motive. There’s an element of like, I think we can assume ethics in a lot of these conversations, which is “do things right,” “I win, you win,” “be good, do good” thing, but the hardest one, and I think the one that is the tip of the spear, Praxis says, “How are you blessing others?” Or how are you aspiring to bless others? “I sacrifice, we win.” How do we love and serve? Institutionalizing that within a company is an incredible challenge, but it’s been one of the most worthwhile challenges for me because—leaning into the redemptive edge—it’s actually reignited my passion and love for the term “agency.” Not agency noun, but agency verb. That has really sparked a lot of imagination for our team of how we can be true agents on but on behalf of the ideas in the missions that we serve. Flipping that on the personal side is, how can I be that for my family? How can it be that for my friends? Designing experiences and living experiences with a redemptive edge has been one of the greatest pursuits in my personal life.
Adam Vazquez 31:40
I appreciate you sharing that. I’m just looking at the Praxis Labs stuff now as you’re talking through it. Any recommendations for folks who are interested? It looks like they have a couple of different learning journeys. Any resources specifically that were helpful to you? Or did you go through some of their coursework or something?
Eric Brown 31:58
Absolutely. We went through their accelerator probably three or four years ago, but their books, they have a book called The Redemptive Business that is literally sitting right beside me. It sits on my desk. Their book, A Rule of Life for Redemptive Entrepreneurs is incredible. They also have a book called The Redemptive Nonprofit that leans into what the redemptive edge means for the nonprofit space, too. It’s just killer content written by incredible people, a lot of meaning in a world that oftentimes feels more driven on returns than impact. I would say Praxis is definitely on the impact side of the spectrum.
Adam Vazquez 32:40
That’s great, so definitely check that out. We’ll link that in the show notes below. Eric, we ended up talking a lot about some of the things that you’re already publishing, but as we wrap here, I’d love to hear any personal projects or anything you’re excited about content wise that you’re creating and/or just what has you fired up over here. We’re recording right now, first full week of January 2022. What’s got you excited on the horizon?
Eric Brown 33:06
Absolutely, well there’s a number of things. I think, first and foremost, Grayscale continues to be at the forefront of my mind just because 24 issues is a lot. The good thing there is, the aspiration for Grayscale is that people know that, again, these tensions that we’re feeling are good things, but understanding why. For example, issue one of Grayscale is consumerism and creativity, which are very different from one another. Are we living a life built more on consumerism versus a life that’s built more on creativity? What side of the spectrum would we gravitate towards? The second one actually dealt with cyber bullying and internet etiquette, or netiquette, if you will. We have full things just related to algorithms and tech wise. What does it mean to utilize technology and put it in its place? Supposed to the algorithms dictating wherever we go on the internet sort of thing. That one’s definitely a thing. Then on the client side, which really fires me up is, we’re working with a lot of incredible missions. In June of this year we’re excited to help launch a new company whose whole mission is helping us put our phones away so we can notice the now. We worked with a tea company that has been building a startup in Afghanistan for the past six years. Their pursuit is building ethical markets for conflict affected communities. Obviously, Afghanistan has been in the national headlines around these sorts of things, and they’re continuing to prevail as a nonprofit amid incredible uncertainty right now as a startup. We’re working with an organization that’s trying to decrease global carbon emissions, helping people and planet through gift giving. We’re working with an organization right now that, in the same way that we all have 401k’s and retirement accounts, they really believe that everyone should have a giving account, so we’re helping them scale their impact over the next six to 12 months. I think that’s the unique thing about Whiteboard. Whiteboard exists to connect the dots between what’s now and what’s next for a lot of organizations. We work with a lot of optimists and so for me amid a world that’s in a cultural moment that’s built on a lot of uncertainty and a lot of skepticism, I am continually reminded that there are incredible people in this world who really believe that the best is in front of us and that makes me hopeful and fires me up on a daily basis.
Adam Vazquez 36:05
That’s great. This has been great. I think it’s a pretty different style from other episodes that we’ve had and I really appreciate the transparency and the genuine thought you’ve shared with us today. I guess just before we sign off, anything else that you’d like to share or mention for the listeners?
Eric Brown 36:22
Go to whiteboard.is and learn more about our work. That’s it. So grateful for this invitation. Hopefully we can do it again.
Adam Vazquez 36:30
Yeah, we will for sure, and by the way, I didn’t even say congrats to the team and to you on winning the Webflow best website builders ever award. I saw on your site you guys were featured on Webflow stuff and we didn’t even get to that. They’re not just the people who are trying to do good, although they are, they’re really good at it too, so make sure you check out their site like Eric said. Appreciate you coming on, Eric.
Eric Brown 36:56
Absolutely, an honor. Thank you.
Carlton Riffel 36:58
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